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  1. #1
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    global warming...

    taken from the SUV thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by alexia
    i'm not trying to step on toes, but does anyone remember that there was an ice age? and then global warming to melt all that ice? I'm not saying that our ozone and pollutant emissions aren't partially to blame, but nature has its own cycle. Our weather has been very steady for so long - it's only a matter of time before the climate shifts radically - as it did all those millions of years ago.

    **edited for glaring grammatical error**
    Quote Originally Posted by soapandwater
    Alexia, maybe we should start a global warming thread, but it's very easy to say global warming's not a big deal when we live in places where it's possible to survive hurricane after hurricane. Or other changes in climate.

    But think about the tsunami (not saying that had anything to do with global warming, I have NO CLUE) and how many people died unnecessarily. Climate changes and weather disasters affect impoverished countries much more drastically than here.

    Floridians can just head on up north when a hurricane comes, but if you're in Cuba, where do you go?
    Quote Originally Posted by brdgt
    Well, from what I remember from Geology in college, yes, ice ages are a natural cycle, but global warming has accelerated that cycle to such a degree that unpredictable and dangerous things happen.

    Not to mention all of the just plain regular unhealthy things that pollution causes.
    Quote Originally Posted by alexia
    like i said, i'm not discounting that pollution is bad, and our emissions may have had an affect on speeding up natural processes... but destructive and unpredictable things are the nature of such climate shifts, no matter how quickly pollution & other emissions brought it on.

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  3. #2
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    *** moved from SUV thread***

    A link: Union of Concerned Scientists on global warming ...

    Alexia, while you are correct that "cycles" are normal in nature, this particular cycle is completely abnormal.

    As an anology, women't cycles "normally" come roughly every 28 days and last roughly 5 days.

    What is currently happening would be as if your cycle was suddenly coming every 10 days, and it it was far heavier than normal.. You'd think you were hemorraging. This cycling is unprecedented by what we understand of the normal cycling of the environemtn in history in that it is super-fast, and therefore animal and plant species do not have enough time to evolve/adapt.

    While in my opinion Canada also hasn't done nearly enough to fight emissions, the US is way behind us ... although Bush now recognizes "climate change" is in effect. The Bush policy compared to gobal policy is summed up in this article:

    Kyoto: Why did the US pull out?

    del

  4. #3
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    I'm starting to feel rather outnumbered ;)

    But I'm still not very convinced that it is solely our CO2 that's causing global warming - and I am very convinced that our pollution is making us sick though, and that is a good enough reason to fight against pollution and fight for a cleaner environment.

    here are some articles from people *scientists included* who do not believe that our emissions are causing global warming and that it is in fact a natural phenomenon:

    Global Warming & Kyoto - written by chemists at the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine
    The Myths of Global Warming - at the National Center of Political Analysis
    Envirotruth (part of the National Center for Public Policy Research ) - Climate change myths page
    Enlightening Lecture on Global Warming

    A lot of what I read for and against the issue of global warming have very conflicting messages. One side skews their stats (which is VERY easy to do... statistics is an art, not a science ;) ), the other counters with their stats which may be skewed. Scientific 'evidence' and historical modelling can't be produced...

    I'm skeptical of both sides, but I don't think that global warming is as big an issue as some environmentalists (and the KYOTO treaty) makes it out to be, and I support our uninvolvement in KYOTO, until global warming can be PROVEN beyond a shadow of a doubt.

    That is not to say that I am against going away from fossil fuels & on to cleaner, more efficent means of powering our culture...

    Things like this on message boards take on a rather one-sided nature, and I would just like to present the other side.

    **edited to add link**

  5. #4
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    With all these experts and their statistics it's very easy to get confused all I will say is that natural progression or not, just to sit in this little country of mine and watch the wacky weather we have been having for the last couple of years it's obvious that something is going badly wrong somewhere and surely anything that MAY be a contributory factor is worth taking a good look at and doing something about it.

    After all, look how many years the tobacco companies told us that smoking would cause us no problems in the future?

  6. #5
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    I guess for me, whether it's global warming or not, I'm all for protecting the environment, our air and water. Policies that combat global warming do so by protecting our environment. I really don't see anything wrong with Kyoto - cutting emissions is good no matter what.

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexia
    I'm skeptical of both sides, but I don't think that global warming is as big an issue as some environmentalists (and the KYOTO treaty) makes it out to be, and I support our uninvolvement in KYOTO, until global warming can be PROVEN beyond a shadow of a doubt.

    That is not to say that I am against going away from fossil fuels & on to cleaner, more efficent means of powering our culture...
    I guess your first point would be more valid if one didn't consider the motives ...

    Mostly those who say global warming isn't very serious or is not caused by fossil fuels are those who have a lot to gain from the fossil fuel industry ... the American President being a prime example. I will look into the souces you quote above ...

    With the tobacco companies, the scientists who came out in defense of tobacco were, to the best of my knowledge, all conducting research that was funded by the tobacco company themselves, so it was really just the same propaganda but with a more credible name purchased and attached. This is a beautiful parallel.

    However, I'm glad we all agree that fossil fuels should be passe ... I want an electric, solar, or hydrogen-powered car when this lease is up. I have athsma and am very sensitive to air quality (it has been very difficult for me to get exercise this summer because the air has been so smoggy) so I guess I find these issues strike home to me a lot more than perhaps others who are less effected.

    del

  8. #7
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    ...here are some articles from people *scientists included* who do not believe that our emissions are causing global warming and that it is in fact a natural phenomenon:

    The Myths of Global Warming - at the National Center of Political Analysis
    Envirotruth (part of the National Center for Public Policy Research ) - Climate change myths page
    Mostly those who say global warming isn't very serious or is not caused by fossil fuels are those who have a lot to gain from the fossil fuel industry...
    Indeed: Between 2000 and 2003, the National Center for Policy Analysis and the National Center for Public Policy Research recevied $205,000.00 and $160,000.00, respectively, from none other than Exxon-Mobile.

    http://www.motherjones.com/news/feat...xon_chart.html

  9. #8
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    I did expect the oil thing to come up.

    I don't claim to know the motivations of everyone, but I sincerely doubt everything President Bush does is motivated by oil... the Kyoto treaty is a bad idea because it will severely limit emissions, which will limit production, which will limit exports & imports, which will decrease the economy's activity, which will plunge the majority of the industrialized world into poverty. That's my take. Not oil. :) And this will not only affect the USA, but China even moreso - they have less of an infastructure to handle wastes (and they are suffering miserably as a result)...

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexia
    the Kyoto treaty is a bad idea because it will severely limit emissions, which will limit production, which will limit exports & imports, which will decrease the economy's activity, which will plunge the majority of the industrialized world into poverty. That's my take.
    Sounds to me like you are more willing to accept some "hypotheticals" that others. Not lowering emmisions could also lead to world hunger as we get less and less nutrients out of our food and the wealthiest nations monopolize the scarce resources left.

  11. #10
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    You said it, brdgt... which hypotheticals sound better? A lot of this is speculation, the research can be specious on both sides, motivation of both environmentalists and the "other" side are questionable. I don't give into the hysterics of either side... and if someone brings up something that I didn't know (HeatherC brought up a point of which i was unaware... thanks) I'll be willing to re-evaluate my own position.

    again, i wanted to try to balance out the seeming one-sidedness of the majority of political/environmental threads on this board - but if no one wants me to do this anymore, i will refrain - i rarely speak my mind on touchy subjects such as these - i've been trampled upon too many times (granted it may have been my fault...) to do this kind of thing too often. Glad everyone is keeping this civil :) makes me want to stick around.


 
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