Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 22

Thread: Troll

  1. #11
    Guest
    Well, I'm actually not that upset. I just wanted to get it out in the open to try to understand the problem.

    Thanks for the advice.

  2. # ADS

  3. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    375
    I think that being a troll is basically verbally abusing and harassing people. NOT stating conservative opinions/values/etc.

    When I think of a troll, I think of behaviour like this stuff:, in the case where one person who was a vegetarian, was pmed a whole bunch of disturbing photos of roadkill animals, with slanderous remarks.
    Some of the trolls have also pmed people with sexually explicit comments, and posted inappropriate things on the threads. They post disturbing graphic photos, and comments that have little to do with the topic at hand, but instead are a personal attack on a person.
    Generally, they follow that kind of a pattern no matter what the board is.

    I don't think that starting controversial debate topics makes someone a troll, unless they seem to do it frequently without offering any input themselves. Even then I'd be hesitant to call them a troll.

  4. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    94
    Completely edited/deleted after reading "Searching for Safety Online: Managing 'Trolling' in a Feminist Forum", am withholding all comments until I have more experience with this subject and this board. Tried to delete, in fact, but the system won't let me. Article located here.

  5. #14
    Guest
    Thank you, alteredtome, for the link. The awful behaviors in that article were surprising - I can't believe anyone would do some of those things. Like I said, I've just tried to interject a broader viewpoint and perspective. Not exactly a troll.

    Good luck to all of you!

  6. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    519
    julieflomom,

    first thanks for saying you liked my book; it means a lot to me. :)

    but what i really want to say is this: i kind of hate the word troll (and so helpful to have a REAL definition -- thanks ladies!) and i *do* think people use it carelessly. i love that conservative women are on the site; it means i'm doing something right and getting my message out to a broader audience than my friends and friends of friends. so yah.

    politically, i tend toward the left and would happily live in a place like france where daycare is free and the work week is only 30 hours, and i would be fine with lots of taxes. but i digress. here's the thing: you are SO welcome here. i envision getcrafty as a place where women dialog about the important things in life -- which means some of the time we are going to disagree, maybe even heatedly. as long as it is a principaled conversation, i support right wing ideas on the site. the thing that is unprincipaled is when someone comes on and says something anti-liberal just to get the ladies rowled up. if you ask me, this behavior isn't conservative or liberal, it's just childish and i should know, i have a toddler!

    eta: after reading through the thread in question, i actually didn't think what Julieflomom said was "troll-like," although people might disagree with me.

  7. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    94
    Re-posted after reading article I cited, just to make sure I wasn't mistaken here.

    Warning: looooong post. I don't think that sharing of information, as was happening in the Barbara Bush thread, is troll behavior at all. Just because people don't agree with each other doesn't mean a person is being inflammatory (even in the SVU/Global Warming threads....everyone has a right to their opinion, correct?). And soapandwater, could you explain to me what you mean when you said?
    But please don't make it difficult for us to discuss issue without having to defend every point. You can be conservative and disagree, but it makes it difficult if you chime in everytime when we're having meaningful discussion (and meaningful disagreements) within our own ideology.
    I just don't understand what the harm is in being requested to back up your points in a thread that has political implications. Personally, I consider that an excellent tool, myself, because as developing, growing human beings, I think it's important that we are challenged on our beliefs once in awhile. Keeps the mind sharp, causes us to review our facts, and sift them from the biases we all develop. And I guess that comment made it sound like certain threads around here are dedicated only to people who think a certain way, and that if folks disagree with the general ideology of the thread, they should keep it to themselves. That's why I'm asking, because I don't want to make any assumptions here.

    I really appreciated the Barbara Bush thread (and the SUV and Global Warming threads), because I was checking out all of those resources, something I don't think I would have done on my own, necessarily (hmmm, it's Thursday night, I think I'll do some research into Global Warming tonight). Nope, rather be crafting (or reading the boards about crafting, etc.). And as hard as it was to admit (being a moderate liberal, and all), beneath the media biases of all of the articles cited in that thread, were some kernels of truth about who screwed up where when it came to Hurricane Katrina. For that, I have to thank you, Julieflomom. Because it's coming down to the fact that every level of government messed up, everything that could go wrong did, and there really is plenty of blame to go around. That's a hard thing for me to choke down, because I really just can't stand George W, as a person, and it's very easy for me to try to lay all the blame on him. But that thread provided sources from both sides of the aisle, and by reading each article and opinion, it has become a bit easier for me to tease out some actual facts. And going back and reading the thread (with calmer eyes), from julieflomom, I see her presenting information as she understood it, with articles that she had read, and others responding in kind, with sources as well. A good, meaty discussion.

    The sad part of that discussion is that it did turn personal, with the whole, "I have a degree in Poli Sci, so I'm not uneducated about this stuff, y'all" (defensive), "Well, no one cares that you have a Poli Sci degree, just state the facts" (offensive), then "Well, here's an article" (statement), "Well, that media source is biased"(veiled personal attack)....on and on, like watching a football game. Phht, where are you ever going to find a media source that isn't biased? I think it's important to truly hear all sides of a story, even when the bias is so clear that you just want to scream and tear your hair out, because you know some people are going to read that as gospel truth. These discussions are not about changing people's minds (which lord knows ain't gonna happen, not with a bunch of strong-willed women hanging around on this board), it's about getting to the true facts of the situation. Just because people may not agree with our conservative sisters doesn't mean we have to nit pick at how they are arguing their point, or get personal because of their beliefs. I mean, we are talking about 50% of the country here that votes conservative. Useless name calling and nit picking is what Congress is doing, and since I'm pretty convinced they're all a bunch of jackasses, there's no sense in the rest of us joining in.

    I admit, julieflomom, your opinions rile my feathers up, because I disagree with a lot of the things that you say. But, I also really appreciate your viewpoints, because they cause me to really look at my own beliefs, clarify them, solidify, get the facts, find the sources, etc. I believe that is of great importance, especially now, in a broad sense. I mean, we are a country divided, with half or so on each side of the aisle, and if anything is ever going to get done around here, it's pretty important for us to listen to each other, or at least try.

    Ok, I think I've expelled my inner peacekeeping needs for now. I agree with julieflomom, too, that it's good to get it out in the open. If think it's good to clear the air, and clear up/clearly define conceptions about trolling behavior. Just part of being a community of crafters, IMHO.

    Kristina

  8. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    943
    I was not very articulate on that post. I realize that my post came off sounding like, "If you disagree with us, you can just shut up." I don't feel that way. But I've noticed lately that any discussion where there have been disagreements has been just crap to participate in. Utter crap. Utter, "I don't trust your news source; here's mine." "Your news source is biased." "Please, that's such a liberal response." blah blah blah.

    I don't know if I'm asking getcrafty to be a safe space, but the more pissed off I get at the world for the bad things people do to one another, I kind of don't feel as willing to support the phrase of "let's agree to disagree." I think that smooths things over too much.

    I don't think julieflomom is a troll. I just think it's irritating to have to prove global warming to people. Much in the same way I'm sick to death of defining feminism and telling people it's valid terminology and a valid movement. And I'm also tired of explaining separating church from state.

    If you're to the left in this country, you're automatically asked to explain your views and to feel guilty about them. Democrats won't even admit to being liberal. It's a dirty word. So, pardon me that I get a bit bothered having to restate and fight over things that I consider to be basic general knowledge, like "the sky is blue" and "too much carbon dioxide can cause the world to heat up, much like the inside of a parked car".

  9. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    719
    WARNING: LOOOONG POST.

    I've been quiet about this in trying to forumulate how I feel about it. I was the one who brought the "T" word into the discussion, so I feel some responsbility to clarify my position.

    First, big thanks to brdgt for posting the links to the on-line references. First let me say that I certainly have no pretense to fully understand trolling - but I echo soapandwater's sentiment that I no longer enjoy participating in discussion forums that stray from knitting - and I find that sad. I also feel as if it's been utter crap trying to have a discussion about anything lately, and that's a problem I think we (as a group) need to solve.

    Taking from brdgt's referenced article, that gives three criteria for trolling:

    1) messages from a sender who appears outwardly sincere,
    2) messages designed to attract predictable responses or flames,
    3) messages that waste a group's time by provoking futile argument.
    I also took to heart the sentiment in Wikipedia's article, which stated, it takes two to troll. It takes two to persist in a futile argument. That's not fun for anyone else to read, and really (I think) ruins the board vibe.

    There was a cleanse thread a while back, in which I think I acted pretty trollish-ly. I entered a thread where a bunch of people who were doing a cleanse were talking about it, and I basically trashed the concept of a cleanse altoghether. And it's true - I still think the logic behind a cleanse is kind of silly, and that it's probably bad for your body. But who am I to tell these ladies what to do? It was overly presumptous and ridiculous of me to go into their discussion about something important to them, and tell them they were wrong. I apolgized to the craftistas in that thread, and thankfully, I don't think they held that against me.

    I don't want to rehash too much of the negativity of the Barbara Bush (BB) thread, but I feel I need to explain what I thought was trollish: the big switch in topic from what the inappropriateness of what BB said, to a debate regarding the validity of media sources, and the "Take that!" sentiment of the posts. It wasn't the comments, or the idology, that I felt were trollish - but the fact that they wern't really relevant to the BB discussion. On the other side, threads adapt and change, which makes them interesting to read. I don't know where the line is between troll-ism and an evolving thread. I think it lies somewhere in the criteria listed above, somewhere between posting comments that are in disagreement versus posting comments that are clearly against the ideology of others, that are sure to attract predictable negative responses, and that lead to a futile agrument.

    I personally however felt that these comments would maybe have been more appropriate in a new thread, but again, who am I to say what is appropriate or not? However, the change in topic made it almost impossible for the craftistas who wanted to talk about BB, as they had to defend every point. I also don't think julieflomom enjoyed it very much, as her posts showed she felt defensive and attacked. In other words, something happened that made it a negative experience for those invovled, and it is that which I think needs to change.

    The troll post was in bad taste, and was not constructive to the discussion. I have not deleted it, because I think that would be a bit of a copout, and i want to take responsbility for my actions. I'm thankful that we are having this constructive discussion now.

    A solution? Well, we could never talk about politics, or challenging issues. But yeah, that wouldn't be any fun, and how can we learn about each other if we don't discuss? Or we could only let people with a similar idology enter the boards - but again, that cocoons us all in our own pre-existing dogmas, and doesn't challenge our own world-views. As jean said,

    i envision getcrafty as a place where women dialog about the important things in life -- which means some of the time we are going to disagree, maybe even heatedly. as long as it is a principaled conversation, i support right wing ideas on the site.
    Feminism has struggled with inclusivity to diversity with it's members. I'm a big fan of Audre Lorde, who I feel is one of the best writiers in addressing the problem of bonding across distance.

    She wrote:
    we have all been programmed to respond to the human differences between us with fear and loathing and to handle that difference in one of three ways: ignore it, and if that is not possible, copy it if we think it is dominant, or destroy it if we think it is subordinate. But we have no patterns for relating across our human differences as equals. As a result, those differences have been misnamed and misused in the service of separation and confusion.
    and
    it is not our differences that divide us. it is our inability to recognize, accept & celebrate those differences
    and
    We must be the change we wish to see in the world
    Learning to celebate our differences is a hard road that I'm still walking, but I'd like to walk it with all of you.
    Perhaps we all need to keep in mind those "criteria for trolling" and make sure that in our own behaviour, we don't perpetuate or create negativity. It's tough, and big-mouth that I am, I'm bound to screw it up more than anyone, but if we all try there's no where to go but up.

    I hope I've explained myself well,

    del

  10. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    519
    wow. i just got all teary reading these posts. how amazing that we struggled with this together. i so appreciate what alteredtome, soapandwater and delcq have to say on this. and getting through it and thinking about it. this right here is politics. this is the stuff of life and feminism and figuring it all out. it's uncomfortable. it should be. if it were easy it wouldn't be called the "struggle." feminism is only easy in theory. in practice it's yucky and hard and messy and we do things and say things we regret. but really who cares? it's better than playing it safe and just accepting the status quo. you rock.

  11. #20
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    94
    Wow, del....I mean, what else can I say, but "Wow"? (Well, you know I've got more to say, I can never keep it short). ;) You captured so perfectly the essence of the whole kit-and-kaboodle, the messiness of it all: trying to be inclusive, without setting ourselves up to fail; the ability to find and maintain our own voices, without beating up others with them; the stuggle to find what is right by looking at all sides, without getting lost in the sides that get taken. Those passages you cited from Audre Lord are perfect. We "don't have patterns for relating across our human differences as equals." And then Jean is right, this is feminism, and here we are, smack dab in the middle of trying to figure out what that means, in real life.

    I know it was hypothetical del, but I think that political discussions will be right here in "freestyle", forever, right at the top. Too much happening in the world to shut that stuff out. Personally, I really need you all to talk about these things. I live smack dab in Religious Right Country (Colorado Springs, CO, Home of Focus on the Family, and Dr. James Dobson), and so for me, this is my place to stretch my liberal bones a bit, and bone up on my facts (semi-pun intended). I've been here for 4 months, which I know isn't a huge amount of time, yet I feel I know your voices, and can trust that things discussed here will bring up things I never even thought about (I had a name change, y'all can check out my blog if you're just dying to know why ;) ).

    So, personally, I think with the knowledge that we have all gained from what trolling really is (per the guidelines I'm quoting from you, below), these definitions could perhaps be our guide, part of our own "Roberta's Rules of Order", or something:

    1) messages from a sender who appears outwardly sincere,
    2) messages designed to attract predictable responses or flames,
    3) messages that waste a group's time by provoking futile argument
    .

    (For the brilliant article that outlined these, originally posted by the equally brilliant brgt in this thread, please see Searching for Safety Online: Managing "Trolling" in a Feminist Forum)

    And really, what I think it's going to take, in the future, is our own abilities to be concise without getting insulting. Basically, as the woman said, "R-E-S-P-E-C-T". Amen, Aretha.

    Del, I felt that you completely opened up your heart here for all of us to see, and that brings tears to my eyes, too. That takes a certain amount of trust in the people here, and a hell of a lot of ovaries. I think you're my new hero. ;) I hope you don't mind, because I am going to copy what you wrote, as a reminder to myself, to "Be the change that I wish to see in the world."

    Kristina


 
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Remove Ads

Ads

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. I'm a troll... You're a troll...
    By brightsun in forum Community Announcements & Suggestions
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 02-07-2006, 10:16 AM

Search tags for this page

conservative crafters

,

what are conservative trolls

Click on a term to search for related topics.