Posted by brdgt on 2005-09-13 14:32:51
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I did want to make a clarification about what I was talking about when I said what I said about finding that shared principles help a conversation. I was not talking about venting, with no other viewpoints welcome. To me, there is a huge difference between:
"I hate Barbara Bush!"
"Me too!"
"Me three!"
"Me four!"
"Me five!"
and
"I've been thinking for a long time about the ethics of vandalizing SUVs."'
"I think that vandalizing SUVs is completely wrong, there is a better way of dealing with people who are hurting the environment. We need public dialogue."
"I find it ironic that SUV drivers are destroying my air and yet want their property respected."
"I drive an SUV and feel conflicted about it, because I need it for work and I hate that people see me as an environment-destroyer."
Both of those are conversations where some basic values are shared. I don't see the first example as productive at all, and that's not what I'd want. At the same time, I see the second as very productive, fun and educational -- exactly what I come to Getcrafty for, and that's why I do tend to get upset when those kinds of conversations are derailed (for instance, by turning it into a discussion about whether global warming exists or not).
And Jean, I want to join the chorus thanking you for starting this conversation. It is very helpful.
Just got back from class :)
Xuli, you so eloquently stated the other side of what I didn't have time to type up earlier. Not only do I appreciate this community because it handles conflict well (just look at how productive this thread is turning out to be) but also because I do feel like there are shared values here. They may be as simple as anti-racist, pro-feminist, queer-friendly and open-mindedness (among other things), but I know that when I click on a thread about a political discussion here I will learn something.
This is how trolls (real trolls, not people who disagree) damage a community. They divert discussion between people that disagree into unproductive distractions. Their activity can make people believe that people who disagree can't have a productive conversation - but they can and do.
So I think it's really important that threads about what a troll really is and what disagreement really is and how we can make discussions productive and not disruptive are really important to be going on at the same time.
Posted by MlleEmily on 2004-11-23 01:21:37
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This thread is really interesting... that post about embroidery reminded me of a funny exchange between a guy friend and me that happened a couple weeks ago...
Him: Oh, what're those little things you're sewing?
Me: Oh, they're yo-yo's, you cut little circles and then run the thread all around the edge, and pull it all tight and then you have this little scrunchie... yo-yo-ey thing, and you make like 400 of them and then sew THEM together into a bedcover or something.
Him: (looking over his glasses and fixing me with a serious look) Emily, that sounds like a craft designed to KEEP WOMEN DOWN.
I think the idea that being domestically minded is anti-feminist is as ridiculous as this new idea coming up that embracing the domestic arts is somehow actually pro-feminist... um, no. The patriarchy (if you believe in it; I do, with reservations) is neither helped nor hindered according to whether a bunch of us gals decide, oooh, societal-norms-be-damned!- we LIKE knitting!
Remember, these 'domestic arts' we're speaking of here are actually the fun stuff, the creative stuff. We're talking HOBBIES here, people, things we CHOOSE to do with our FREE TIME. Of course we love it and it feels fabulous to make stuff. Now, the vast majority of houseWORK, ie the non-fun, toilet-cleaning, laundry, boring grunt-work is still being done overwhelmingly by the women in families. I think that the continuance of the ladies getting lumped with the non-fun domestic stuff would benefit from further enquiry... but maybe that's for MY thesis.
