the long-awaited fourth wave feminism

[Athos]

anyone read this article in the current utne?

http://www.utne.com/pub/2005_128/cover_story/115
73-1.html

i'd love to hear some thoughts on the subject. think it's true? think the fourth wave is already here? think it has nothing to do with spirituality?

i see it a few different ways... on one hand, i think the fourth wave will really come when US citizens lose the right to abortion, safer sex ed, etc. it's already been taken away in so many other parts of the world.

and on the other, i see the spiritual connections too. like how in many churches, women are the ones attending every week, running the service programs, and generally being responsible for the group memory. and men being less and less a part of it. how long until women and in the catholic church and other churches where women are not part of the leadership eventually storm the castle so to speak? will that be the fourth wave?

[soapandwater]

You know I kind of thought the fourth wave might sort of be a merging of cultural politics and social activism, but I can also see how spirituality might come into play-- was it in Bitch or somewhere about a female rabbi living/studying in Israel? I don't think a lot of these issues have been tackled, and I think they need to be-- we have the right to worship what we want and be what we want without being told we can't because of our biology.
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When you got a hundred voices singin',
who can hear a lousy whistle blow?

[xuli]

Hmmmm. Great topic, Athos! Thanks for posting. I don't subscribe to The Utne Reader, so I didn't see the article and wasn't able to read the whole thing. I'll check to see if the library has it next time I'm there so maybe I can read the whole thing.

I have to admit the first paragraph of the article makes me wary. I worry about any kind of feminism that posits women as "essentially" or "fundamentally" linked to peace, or somehow more peaceful than men ... which is where it kind of sounded like this article was going, based on that first paragraph. As a feminist, I'm wary of any ideology that ascribes certain fundamental, essential characteristics to women (and, by extension, certain fundamental, essential characteristics to men), even if that ideology is coming from another feminist.

I also have to say that the following quote makes me uneasy:

[Athos]

i'm so hoping that whatever the 4th wave is, that a major component is, as my roommate would say, less myopia - more understanding about women on an international scope, and how as xuli points out, how absolutely connected our choices here are to the freedoms women enjoy or are denied all over the world.

i don't mind the "waves" - though many times it made me feel lost. like i'm not part of the third wave, and that's what's out there now, so there is no feminism for me. to take the image futher, i like how there's the ocean, which is all we have in common, and periodically things shift to gather momentum for a wave.

i guess i'm bringing all of this up because international women's day is approaching, because of the UN anti-abortion resolutions, and other anti-women rhetoric i've seen latey (esp that coming from the vatican).

many times posters on this board have said that conscious living/DIY is a feminist value. how does that fit in with any fourth wave?

also what interests me is that considering so much *positive* social change has been begun by people of faith, like the civil rights movement, the possibilty of tremendous change by women of faith really excites me. a little OT, but just think what would happen if all of the US women who defined themselves as christian suddenly because politically involved in creating a society with more christian values of forgiveness, care for the hungry, etc. i see so much negativity associated with extremist religions, that it really interests me to imagine the future with the liberal faithful.

wasn't part of the problem with the past elections that democrats ceded to republicans all of the control over god and faith? how will feminism affect that? how will feminism change if church-going women from republican states begin to see feminism as something they can and want to identify with?

[xuli]

[soapandwater]

Speaking of waves, you know, I've had trouble identifying myself as a third-wave feminist, although I'm technically young enough to be part of, say, the fourth wave movement (if it comes about).

I used to think it was just a generational thing, and I certainly like the whole thing that happened in the early 90s with the riot grrrl movement, although that fizzled out and we're once again in a world where men are the only ones seen as real musicmakers.

And I certainly have a problem with "this is how I interpret feminism." That can be severely skewed that a ton of people are saying, "I'm feminist, so I can manipulate people with sex."

Logically, if this third wave sort of flopped, we have to aim higher then. There are certain things that I do consider morals of mine; they're the things that make me cry, if I think too hard on them. What's really amazing is how great the philosophies of, say, Jesus Christ are and how they could be applied to, I don't know, helping out fellow human beings.

I don't believe women are inherently these things. I believe we've been socialized to be nurturing, blah blah, etc. I do believe, though, that every human being has the capacity to heal, in some small way, and it wouldn't be a bad thing for feminists to be the one leading the way.

Because right now, things seem terribly desperate. And depressing.
_________________
When you got a hundred voices singin',
who can hear a lousy whistle blow?

[cosmosgrrl]

I confess, I haven't thought deeply about this topic in a very long time but the discussion here has called to me to fire up those gray cells and think on it for a piece. I will be back later to post more after I've read the full article.

I too hope to see a certain spirituality and form of faith strung through the next "wave" of feminism. Athos, are you familiar with the "renegade" Catholic church called Spiritus Christi in Rochester, NY? The entire parish was excommunicated several years ago when the pastor, Fr. Jim Callan, allowed a woman, the Rev. Mary Rammerman, to perform the functions of an ordained priest. The church split from Rome, and Fr. Callan brought in a bishop (I can't remember from where) to ordain Rev. Rammerman. They have a website at http://www.spirituschristi.org/. I have attended services there many times and can tell you that it is like nothing I've ever experienced before.

[kindarana]

I fear any "spiritual" feminism might quickly be taken over as "Christian" and that's not fair to those of us who see spirit in other forms.

p.s. Xuli - your location says bay area, if Cupertino is close I've read Utne there several times.

[honeybee]

the utne article also says'
"When you get Jewish, Catholic, Buddhist, Hindu, and Sufi women in the same room...another religion emerges, which is feminine spirituality."

i think that with all the strife in the world that is a direct result of religious difference, it's key to find ways to erase boundaries between faiths and find common ground in spiritual practice. if women are going to lead the way, all the better.

the article also mentions that since women are outsiders from the authority positions in institutions, they potentially have more power because they are free from the restraints of having to follow protocol.

and i'm excited to hear the results of the U.N. resolution that would require women to be involved in all peace negotiations. i know i'll probably get flamed for being unfeminist by saying this, but i feel that women have something very powerful to offer in bringing about the peace process- something which centuries of patriarchal, violent society has lacked and desperately needs.
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*honeybee.etsy*

[slowgraffiti220]

i haven't read the article (i don't have a subscription), but i will say a few things about women, feminism, spirituality, and activism.

firstly, i think the idea of women across faiths coming together and finding that they share a feminine spirituality is hogwash. that feminine spirituality that they all share is likely a result of the fact that they all shared enough of the same ideals in the first place to be coming together for some women-across-faiths initiative, not because women have some special spirituality in how they practice religion. i think this whole idea about women having any innate feminineness is dangerous and just wrong. i would say that, yes, many women have many characteristics deemed feminine, to the point that these characteristics might be considered inextricable from their personalities/who they are as people, and that these characteristics and values, such as communication, peace, etc...are traditionally devalued in many arenas, particularly that of world politics. i do not however think that these characteristics are somehow innate to women, but rather, that their high frequency in women and high exclusion in men merely speaks to how we socialize children in this modern, "unsexist" age. i think that bringing more women and women's experiences to the table in the political arena would help bring some trad. feminine values into the spotlight, and that overall it would be a good thing...but i primarily think that it would be good not because of some innate differences between men and women (i.e. women bring the yin to the men's yang or something to that effect), but just because of the inclusion of people, who as of now, experience the world and social forces in very different ways and from different perspectives. this is the same reason i want to see more "minorities" of all sorts in the political arena though.

aside from all of that there is the fact that being a woman in different cultures means different things...for example, when american feminists got together with russian feminists after the cold war ended the russians felt that to be feminist meant that they could exercise their right to be trad. womanly finally (after years of state mandated short haircuts, pants, and scarce make-up)...the american feminists couldn't get it because to them, what the russian ladies had had during socialism was what they'd been fighting for the right to do over in the capitalist world. being a woman means multiple things, both on the intercultural level, as above, and the intracultural level...i myself feel in many ways ungendered, and i think that's an important perspective to consider as well...personally, i thought that's where we were going in feminism with all of this get crafty stuff...that is, to a place where all forms of work, thought, and life were valued to and for all people...that by doing something trad. feminine like knitting while doing something trad. masculine, like wearing pants on the subway on the way to work, you were being an activist by saying, i am a human first, my life is not dictated by ideas of a gendered me.

as for the faith and activism...i am afraid of that. i respect peoples' right to have their own faith and to express it, but i'll be damned if "people of faith" are going to come into activist movements and choke me out of it with this idea of, "we need to join together in our commonalities!" as a person of no faith, i don't really have commonalities with these people on that level. i speak from experience with this...for whatever reason, i work within the seriously religious/catholic organization of Amnesty Intl. and i see this all the time. i am a good leader. i have strong beliefs in what i do. but i want to walk the hell out of a conference when someone starts with some interfaith prayer. i take my humanist values from the humanist tradition of logical, rational thought and try to comport myself in an ethical and humane way. a group prayer actually ::really:: alienates me because it's presented as somehow necessary to the process of activism...i've even had people say to me, "i don't think you can have a social justice movement without faith...all of the biggest movements for peace have come from religious ends..." well gee wiz, thanks for basically calling me incapable of fighting for social justice and completely negating the validity of my worldview and values. i pointed out that all of the biggest movements for violence have come from religious ends as well, and was promptly informed, "well, that's not the same." (i actually don't find that to be the case, but i thought it was the easiest way to point out the flaw in her logic.)

anyways, just my 54 cents on this issue.

(edited because i realized that i can't spell for shit)

[ada]

I'm afraid that looking at the 'Gather the Women' website (that the Utne article is talking about) brings me out in a rash... there's phrases like

[soapandwater]

I think the key here is not to let some speculation about the rising waves of feminism dictate what we do or not do.

The way I see it, I'm going to pretty much disregard the trends in feminism if I see them at all counter-productive, and I hope other feminists would do the same.

My big thing that I like to do (which irritates a lot of people) is say when something is NOT feminist because I think right now we have a skewed idea of what feminism is.

I think the third wave and second wave could really merge and create something really great. I also think certainly religiouns need serious rethinking because if a woman is being dictated by her faith, how can we possibly expect her to start breaking the mold?

That's a problem.

I see this as an opportunity to redefine how we see the dominant (and not so dominant) religions and say, "Okay, let's just say that maybe the Bible was severely wrong in its translation. Let's say that maybe women are a hell of a lot more important than just being one thing or another."

Think of all the backlash in speculating about whether or not Mary Magdalene was more than what the Bible said (Sorry to use Christianity as an example, but it's the only one I know; just know that it's an example)?

We need to reexplore history and spirituality, and we need to come to better conclusions about the role women have played. Religion doesn't need to be this scary, imprisoning thing, but it is right now.

It's one thing to be a person of no faith because you've logically come to that conclusion. It's another to feel alienated because you're a woman or hold certain beliefs that you feel are your morals that you won't compromise.

This is a very scattered post, but I think that whether or not we slap "fourth wave" over this sort of movement, I do think, somewhere along the lines, this needs to happen. I think certain religions hold women down, which is odd, considering how a good deal of religions I have common knowledge of seem to promote feminist ideals at some point.

I'll try to edit this for clarity later.
_________________
When you got a hundred voices singin',
who can hear a lousy whistle blow?

[xuli]

Wow, so much to think about! I'm so glad this thread is getting so many responses! I love me some intellectual debate about feminism! Woo hoo!

[quixotic]

crap! i really want to read this now, but am stuck at work and don't have an online subscription! poo!

but i will add that issues of feminism both excite and repel me because you're either for it or against and it's an emotional topic even before you hit the 3rd wave, 4th wave, postfeminism quagmire.

and then if you can survive that, if you're not totally zapped of energy, it's hard to really take in everything due to all the divulgent positions.

and somehow, that makes me sad.

thanks for posting this topic, athos, i'm going to try and hit a bookstore soon and read the whole thing.

i've also enjoyed reading all of the responses here, as well.

i'm not knocking anyone, just voicing a little frustration over the state of feminism.
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[honeybee]